I joined the US Army in 1961 at the age of 17 “to see the world” and because I had no other options. I was sent to France for 2-1/2 years, then US forces were kicked out by DeGaulle and I returned to the US for the final three months of my enlistment. I remember thinking how lucky I was to have completed my service when the US war in Vietnam escalated, and my unit was sent to fight the Vietnamese. I was part of the antiwar movement at the UW-Madison and witnessed the National Guard with fixed bayonets and live ammunition in the streets of Chicago in 1968 and on our campus in May 1970 after the Kent State and Jackson State murders of unarmed protesting students. There were efforts to organize resistance to the war in the military, with some success, but for the most part active duty military were caught in a trap and unable to escape. All this to say I agree with the author: don’t join the military, and if you’re already serving, get out as soon as possible.
A high school classmate of my husband’s was under the command of Lt. William Calley at the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. After the villagers were rounded up and Calley ordered his soldiers to begin shooting, K fired his gun once, looked around to see others who were not shooting, and refused to resume shooting.
K and the others who refused to follow Calley’s dictates were court-marshalled. If you wish to be moral, the military sure as shit ain’t the place for you.
“ The mere act of being a soldier is not necessarily worthy of praise. Were the soldiers who murdered all of the Native Americans in the West to make way for white settlers worthy of praise? Were the Nazi soldiers who were members of the Einsatzgruppen death squads, whose job it was to commit racist murders across Europe, worthy of praise? Clearly, it matters what orders the soldiers are carrying out.”
Yes, thank you. The knee jerk “thank you for your service”, without knowing anything about the service rendered, is ridiculous.
For what it's worth, I understand that a lot of service members (both current and former) aren't really comfortable with the unsolicited knee-jerk "thank you for your service."
Yeah it's such a strange thing. The idea that everyone who was or is in the military has done something that in some way "served" the average American is absurd.
I take exception to the generalized and one-size-fits-all comments about the military. Full disclosure - I am a 38-year US Army, MD/VA Army National Guard veteran, retiring as a Command Sergeant Major (CSM). I deployed to Bosnia. Operation Joint Forge peace a peacekeeping mission. The US military is taught and trained NOT TO FOLLOW UNLAWFUL ORDERS by any Commander in Chief! I pray it never happens, but other than the current idiot and drunk DOD Secretary, I believe our professional military will not comply with a wanna be king. I disobeyed unlawful orders (not the magnitude possible today) several times during my career because it was unlawful and wrong. I joined to serve and defend the US and the Constitution. I believe others still do.
Genuine question: If the commander in chief gives an order to, say, crush a protest in Washington DC, and the SecDef passes the order on and the generals and officers tell the soldiers to do it, do you think the soldiers are going to say no? That seems like a complete fantasy to me. But I'm interested in your opinion.
That is certainly a valid and concerning question. I also clearly recognize the situation we face, including military personnel and Federal employees. Not an excuse or a pass, many organizations, including the military, have made grievous mistakes. I hope and pray that those institutions learn from past mistakes and do what's best for the country and the constitution. If I'm naive, so be it. I just turned 76 and never would have thought (like many others!) that our country has deteriorated to this level here and abroad. I'm clinging to hope and faith in our institutions. So I have difficulty with denigrating institutions, and their members only make it worse. You and many others I follow on Substack, to your credit, are resisting and calling out the wannabe dictator and his posse of idiots.
I wonder if the training you had is still given today to not obey illegal orders? It seems that the current leadership and administration want to go in the direction of doing things that are illegal otherwise why would they have gone to so much trouble to get rid of the jag lawyers or the inspector generals or the whistleblower department? Lawlessness is their flavor of the day. I am torn because I do want good moral decent people in our Military who won’t do illegal things but I wouldn’t ever want my grandson or nephews to end up in that situation when they might have to choose.
I think there are some who would say no but I don’t have any sense of how many. In other Substack posts I have seen where they are asking jag lawyers (former) for advice because they do not want to follow unlawful orders and become criminals themselves.
i’d like to argue that we NEED morally good people in the military. if it’s only full of boot lickers, we will be overrun easier. they signed up to defend the people of this country and we will be overrun if there’s no one left to fight against the grain.
Yeah. I would say that if you don't trust your ability to refuse an illegal order when it comes, then by all means get out as soon as you can. But if you're confident in your moral judgment and know that you will refuse to be part of oppressing your fellow citizens (or invading Canada or whatever), then stay. When the illegal order comes, it's better that the person receiving it is you, who will refuse, than someone else who will obey. And further, your refusal may inspire others to follow your example.
The dilemma is certainly more acute for military personnel, but it is essentially the dilemma we all face. Where is the threshold where being a good citizen becomes, for lack of a better term, being a “good German”?
I am not someone who normally heaps praise, but... Mr. Nolan, the quality and clarity of your writing continues to both amaze and devastate me, in equal measure. In addition, the quality of the comments and commentators here shows that your writing attracts equally thoughtful, insightful people (so much better than the crap I experience on main stream - corporate - media). I plan on sharing this particular piece as widely as I can. (Having said this, I can now go back to being my normal critical self. 'You're all wrong and full of shit!')
There needs to be more posts like this one. There is very little discussion about what being a soldier actually means,and what an individuals responsibilities actually are as a soldier. Its no secret why its very young men and women who are recruited to join the military. Young pliable minds, gullible and naive make for obedient soldiers.
What's a redline you wouldn't cross if so ordered? This is question that needs to be pondered by every individual thinking of enlisting. I bet its not on anyone' list. Instead, the given assumption is, if you are a voluntary soldier you simply understand you follow orders, its your duty, no questions asked.
America fighting wars is a given, its as normal as eating cereal for breakfast. Its what we do. Nolan's point is well taken, anyone thinking of enlisting needs have a "sit down" with themselves and/or friend or family member or whomever. It should be a long and deep discussion and cover a lot of ground. Its essential in trying to understanding what kind of human being you want to be.
I also wrote on how those in the military must consider their oath of office. But I am not sure they should leave. We need people who are committed to the Constitution to stay and not only refuse illegal orders but make others refuse those orders as well.
Yes. Incidentally, where to draw the line is a decision that a lot of us outside of the military are going to have make as well.
My wife and I are in healthcare. We'll have to decide if we'll be complicit if ICE visits the hospital looking for "illegals" or if some authority comes looking for a suspected abortion case or whatever. (We wouldn't, for the record.)
That's just one example, a personal one. I have friends who work in law enforcement who will have to make a similar calculation. I have friends who own/work on farms who will have to make a similar calculations. On and on down the line, this is a question we'll all have to answer for ourselves.
Additional issues for military and DoD folks these days: the CiC is breaking laws left and right. He is threatening our allies.
It’s important (vital) for military folks to trust the chain of command, to believe that even (especially) dangerous/upsetting orders (and killing is or should always be upsetting to moral humans) have been thought through, are not given casually, have been created in consultation with serious experts and professionals, that strategic and moral and and practical considerations are central to the decision-making process.
It’s manifestly clear that none of this is the case under this administration.
Thank you, Hamilton, for this courageous piece. There is an inherent conflict to have a president who is Commander in Chief of the military - deciding where, how, and when to apply military force. Militarism is a legacy of imperialism and has been employed directly to that purpose along with other, more covert forces. In Australia a test case is before the courts in respect of David McBride, an Australian military whistleblower (former army lawyer). Our head of state is still the British Crown, and all forms of expressed force in Australia swear allegiance to the Crown. McBride has been subject to draconian treatment by the government and court findings, which argue that there is no public interest test, that a soldier's duty is 'only' to follow orders. The case is going to appeal.
I was in the US Coast Guard during the Reagan years, and had to think about what I would do if the ship I was on was ordered to be part of the Haitian interdiction program in place back then. If we were given that duty, I decided that I had to ask to be transferred or leave the service. Fortunately, we were given a different assignment (and the racism against the Haitians by those who had been part of the interdiction before - Yikes!!)
PS: We were in South America during the invasion of Grenada, which made being from the US down there *very* uncomfortable.
Neither Trump nor Musk were ever in the military, so, again we see that these two are willing to make men and women who do serve and swear an oath to protect the Constitution, DESTROY America under the command of two draft-dodging traitors who don't mind spitting in the face of all those who served or are now serving so that they can be the Emperors of the World, and they don't give a damn about anybody who gets killed or hurt, military or civilian.
I hate Trump and Musk but I've never liked this "draft dodger" argument. First of all Musk is my age so even if he grew up in the US there was never any draft for him to dodge and I don't know if there were relevant drafts in South Africa or Canada. Trump surely dodged the draft and that's one of the few things I don't object to about him. The alternative was going to Viet Nam and ironically being involved in the type of things Hamilton is talking about in this piece. I'm sure he didn't dodge the draft for high minded moral reasons but would you rather he'd spent some time massacring civilians in Viet Nam? More over we have (at least for now) civilian control of the military in this country. The implication that Presidents should have some kind of military background always struck me as strange. It's also seldom applied evenly. Did you vote for McCain over Obama because he was a decorated war veteran/POW? HAVING SAID ALL THAT I get what you're saying: Musk and Trump are spoiled rich kids sending other people to war. I just hardly think that them being "draft-dodging traitors" makes their actions any worse or better (and JD Vance is a veteran)
I deeply agree with the spirit of your missive. But I have to wonder what you would say (because honestly I don't know what I would say) to a young serviceperson who is deeply conflicted or confused morally about serving but is receiving not only a secure salary but also full medical and retirement benefits and might have few or perhaps no other employment prospects, or none with anything remotely comparable. Roughly 60 percent of service members come from neighborhoods with a median household income of 65K or less. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military
What are they going to fall back on if they lose their ability to support a family? This government is not going to lift a finger to help them. Just pondering....
Poverty and inequality and lack of opportunity have always been good recruiting tools for the military. It is not an easy question. But I do believe most people do not see themselves as villains or oppressors and have a natural aversion to doing things that would make them so. Ironically the things you point out that attract people to the military are called "socialism" in the civilian world.
I joined the US Army in 1961 at the age of 17 “to see the world” and because I had no other options. I was sent to France for 2-1/2 years, then US forces were kicked out by DeGaulle and I returned to the US for the final three months of my enlistment. I remember thinking how lucky I was to have completed my service when the US war in Vietnam escalated, and my unit was sent to fight the Vietnamese. I was part of the antiwar movement at the UW-Madison and witnessed the National Guard with fixed bayonets and live ammunition in the streets of Chicago in 1968 and on our campus in May 1970 after the Kent State and Jackson State murders of unarmed protesting students. There were efforts to organize resistance to the war in the military, with some success, but for the most part active duty military were caught in a trap and unable to escape. All this to say I agree with the author: don’t join the military, and if you’re already serving, get out as soon as possible.
A high school classmate of my husband’s was under the command of Lt. William Calley at the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. After the villagers were rounded up and Calley ordered his soldiers to begin shooting, K fired his gun once, looked around to see others who were not shooting, and refused to resume shooting.
K and the others who refused to follow Calley’s dictates were court-marshalled. If you wish to be moral, the military sure as shit ain’t the place for you.
“ The mere act of being a soldier is not necessarily worthy of praise. Were the soldiers who murdered all of the Native Americans in the West to make way for white settlers worthy of praise? Were the Nazi soldiers who were members of the Einsatzgruppen death squads, whose job it was to commit racist murders across Europe, worthy of praise? Clearly, it matters what orders the soldiers are carrying out.”
Yes, thank you. The knee jerk “thank you for your service”, without knowing anything about the service rendered, is ridiculous.
For what it's worth, I understand that a lot of service members (both current and former) aren't really comfortable with the unsolicited knee-jerk "thank you for your service."
Yeah it's such a strange thing. The idea that everyone who was or is in the military has done something that in some way "served" the average American is absurd.
I take exception to the generalized and one-size-fits-all comments about the military. Full disclosure - I am a 38-year US Army, MD/VA Army National Guard veteran, retiring as a Command Sergeant Major (CSM). I deployed to Bosnia. Operation Joint Forge peace a peacekeeping mission. The US military is taught and trained NOT TO FOLLOW UNLAWFUL ORDERS by any Commander in Chief! I pray it never happens, but other than the current idiot and drunk DOD Secretary, I believe our professional military will not comply with a wanna be king. I disobeyed unlawful orders (not the magnitude possible today) several times during my career because it was unlawful and wrong. I joined to serve and defend the US and the Constitution. I believe others still do.
Genuine question: If the commander in chief gives an order to, say, crush a protest in Washington DC, and the SecDef passes the order on and the generals and officers tell the soldiers to do it, do you think the soldiers are going to say no? That seems like a complete fantasy to me. But I'm interested in your opinion.
That is certainly a valid and concerning question. I also clearly recognize the situation we face, including military personnel and Federal employees. Not an excuse or a pass, many organizations, including the military, have made grievous mistakes. I hope and pray that those institutions learn from past mistakes and do what's best for the country and the constitution. If I'm naive, so be it. I just turned 76 and never would have thought (like many others!) that our country has deteriorated to this level here and abroad. I'm clinging to hope and faith in our institutions. So I have difficulty with denigrating institutions, and their members only make it worse. You and many others I follow on Substack, to your credit, are resisting and calling out the wannabe dictator and his posse of idiots.
I wonder if the training you had is still given today to not obey illegal orders? It seems that the current leadership and administration want to go in the direction of doing things that are illegal otherwise why would they have gone to so much trouble to get rid of the jag lawyers or the inspector generals or the whistleblower department? Lawlessness is their flavor of the day. I am torn because I do want good moral decent people in our Military who won’t do illegal things but I wouldn’t ever want my grandson or nephews to end up in that situation when they might have to choose.
I pray you are correct, but we are in strange, immoral times...
I think there are some who would say no but I don’t have any sense of how many. In other Substack posts I have seen where they are asking jag lawyers (former) for advice because they do not want to follow unlawful orders and become criminals themselves.
i’d like to argue that we NEED morally good people in the military. if it’s only full of boot lickers, we will be overrun easier. they signed up to defend the people of this country and we will be overrun if there’s no one left to fight against the grain.
Yeah. I would say that if you don't trust your ability to refuse an illegal order when it comes, then by all means get out as soon as you can. But if you're confident in your moral judgment and know that you will refuse to be part of oppressing your fellow citizens (or invading Canada or whatever), then stay. When the illegal order comes, it's better that the person receiving it is you, who will refuse, than someone else who will obey. And further, your refusal may inspire others to follow your example.
The dilemma is certainly more acute for military personnel, but it is essentially the dilemma we all face. Where is the threshold where being a good citizen becomes, for lack of a better term, being a “good German”?
I am not someone who normally heaps praise, but... Mr. Nolan, the quality and clarity of your writing continues to both amaze and devastate me, in equal measure. In addition, the quality of the comments and commentators here shows that your writing attracts equally thoughtful, insightful people (so much better than the crap I experience on main stream - corporate - media). I plan on sharing this particular piece as widely as I can. (Having said this, I can now go back to being my normal critical self. 'You're all wrong and full of shit!')
There needs to be more posts like this one. There is very little discussion about what being a soldier actually means,and what an individuals responsibilities actually are as a soldier. Its no secret why its very young men and women who are recruited to join the military. Young pliable minds, gullible and naive make for obedient soldiers.
What's a redline you wouldn't cross if so ordered? This is question that needs to be pondered by every individual thinking of enlisting. I bet its not on anyone' list. Instead, the given assumption is, if you are a voluntary soldier you simply understand you follow orders, its your duty, no questions asked.
America fighting wars is a given, its as normal as eating cereal for breakfast. Its what we do. Nolan's point is well taken, anyone thinking of enlisting needs have a "sit down" with themselves and/or friend or family member or whomever. It should be a long and deep discussion and cover a lot of ground. Its essential in trying to understanding what kind of human being you want to be.
I also wrote on how those in the military must consider their oath of office. But I am not sure they should leave. We need people who are committed to the Constitution to stay and not only refuse illegal orders but make others refuse those orders as well.
https://open.substack.com/pub/cardboardicarus/p/how-to-prevent-civil-war?r=45uga&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Yes. Incidentally, where to draw the line is a decision that a lot of us outside of the military are going to have make as well.
My wife and I are in healthcare. We'll have to decide if we'll be complicit if ICE visits the hospital looking for "illegals" or if some authority comes looking for a suspected abortion case or whatever. (We wouldn't, for the record.)
That's just one example, a personal one. I have friends who work in law enforcement who will have to make a similar calculation. I have friends who own/work on farms who will have to make a similar calculations. On and on down the line, this is a question we'll all have to answer for ourselves.
Former Marine here. I completely agree with this article.
Additional issues for military and DoD folks these days: the CiC is breaking laws left and right. He is threatening our allies.
It’s important (vital) for military folks to trust the chain of command, to believe that even (especially) dangerous/upsetting orders (and killing is or should always be upsetting to moral humans) have been thought through, are not given casually, have been created in consultation with serious experts and professionals, that strategic and moral and and practical considerations are central to the decision-making process.
It’s manifestly clear that none of this is the case under this administration.
Thank you, Hamilton, for this courageous piece. There is an inherent conflict to have a president who is Commander in Chief of the military - deciding where, how, and when to apply military force. Militarism is a legacy of imperialism and has been employed directly to that purpose along with other, more covert forces. In Australia a test case is before the courts in respect of David McBride, an Australian military whistleblower (former army lawyer). Our head of state is still the British Crown, and all forms of expressed force in Australia swear allegiance to the Crown. McBride has been subject to draconian treatment by the government and court findings, which argue that there is no public interest test, that a soldier's duty is 'only' to follow orders. The case is going to appeal.
https://www.hrlc.org.au/reports-news-commentary/mcbride-sentenced
I was in the US Coast Guard during the Reagan years, and had to think about what I would do if the ship I was on was ordered to be part of the Haitian interdiction program in place back then. If we were given that duty, I decided that I had to ask to be transferred or leave the service. Fortunately, we were given a different assignment (and the racism against the Haitians by those who had been part of the interdiction before - Yikes!!)
PS: We were in South America during the invasion of Grenada, which made being from the US down there *very* uncomfortable.
Neither Trump nor Musk were ever in the military, so, again we see that these two are willing to make men and women who do serve and swear an oath to protect the Constitution, DESTROY America under the command of two draft-dodging traitors who don't mind spitting in the face of all those who served or are now serving so that they can be the Emperors of the World, and they don't give a damn about anybody who gets killed or hurt, military or civilian.
I hate Trump and Musk but I've never liked this "draft dodger" argument. First of all Musk is my age so even if he grew up in the US there was never any draft for him to dodge and I don't know if there were relevant drafts in South Africa or Canada. Trump surely dodged the draft and that's one of the few things I don't object to about him. The alternative was going to Viet Nam and ironically being involved in the type of things Hamilton is talking about in this piece. I'm sure he didn't dodge the draft for high minded moral reasons but would you rather he'd spent some time massacring civilians in Viet Nam? More over we have (at least for now) civilian control of the military in this country. The implication that Presidents should have some kind of military background always struck me as strange. It's also seldom applied evenly. Did you vote for McCain over Obama because he was a decorated war veteran/POW? HAVING SAID ALL THAT I get what you're saying: Musk and Trump are spoiled rich kids sending other people to war. I just hardly think that them being "draft-dodging traitors" makes their actions any worse or better (and JD Vance is a veteran)
I deeply agree with the spirit of your missive. But I have to wonder what you would say (because honestly I don't know what I would say) to a young serviceperson who is deeply conflicted or confused morally about serving but is receiving not only a secure salary but also full medical and retirement benefits and might have few or perhaps no other employment prospects, or none with anything remotely comparable. Roughly 60 percent of service members come from neighborhoods with a median household income of 65K or less. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/demographics-us-military
What are they going to fall back on if they lose their ability to support a family? This government is not going to lift a finger to help them. Just pondering....
Poverty and inequality and lack of opportunity have always been good recruiting tools for the military. It is not an easy question. But I do believe most people do not see themselves as villains or oppressors and have a natural aversion to doing things that would make them so. Ironically the things you point out that attract people to the military are called "socialism" in the civilian world.
A media household income of 65k isn't that poor in most of the country